I'm stumped. I'm not so sure what is the answer. I'll do some research and get back to you if I find an good answer. You should email the people at iPage as they probably could give you an answer..
I design in 'flexible' tables or divs, and allow for the use of 800x600 and 1024x768. I do take advantage of IE's superior CSS support, and usually include code that will work only for IE, but that also degrades well (does not cause errors, and usually is ignored if not supported)..
This allows me to design for the 'cream of the crop' while still being accessable for N users..
I hate to say it, but if you design for 800x600 Netscape users youd be missing a lot. In the end I have ie5.0, ie5.5, ie6, N4.7, and n6.2 available to test on. While in development, I test on IE6, N4.7, and N6. You will find that to really make a iPage site cross browser friendly... you need to test in all your targeted browsers VERY often-at all times..
Doc, how do you test in all those IE browsers? Have you found a way of installing more than one version on a system or do you just have access to a lot of different PC's running different versions of IE?..
It sounds like the easiest way to get into browser conflicts is when the code is not written in percentages, and also not paying attention to image sizes that tend to push things out of position..
Is that pretty accurate?..
Thanks Dr. Web - this has become an issue I'm trying to learn how to deal with as you saw in another thread..
I, too am curious about what KWJams said:.
Is that correct? Since we're on the subject, what about placing size attributes in the table data cell? Does that effect the way the page will look on different resolutions? Must one totally avoid defining size attributes? Like if I made a table with no width specified but did specify my table data cell at 60% or 600, whichever, would that then throw the page off on a larger resolution?.
Oh - and another question - I noticed on my folks computer which is the 1078 resolution (can't remember the second half...) that many pages leave two or three inches of blank space along the right side, including MSN. Are these sites specified for 800 by 600? If so, how do they get it so at least it isn't all over the screen but neatly set along the left side?.
(I hope I said that all right!)..
Jeni & KW:.
If you code in set widths and heights youwill run into problems. you should run trhem in percentages. tha tis my opinion and I am sticking to it.
But yeah if you set it to look really good at 800x600 then it will probably look ok in 1024x768 even if the width and heoght are set in stone. then you will get what Jeni said about MSN's page..
Did all that make since?..
Yes, the MSN page is setup for 800x600, and just left aligned. Id prefer if it were centered as HTMLforums is..
As far as testing on multiple IE browsers... I cheat..
At work we have a bete-peoduction server running IE5.0, a MS team portal server running IE5.5, and another pc running IE6 all on a switch connected to the same monitor/ keyboard..
Whenever I want to test, I jump over to one of the other machines. I haven't found a way to test across all 3 IE browsers on the same pc...
IE won't let you load 2 browsers on the same pc. because since IE is so intergrated into windows it will over-right the existing version. too bad as that is why I like NS. oh well life goes on..
I would prefer the page in the center too - I don't like that when the pages are squashed up against the left side..
I'm confused again..
I downloaded it how do you use this in your pages?I mean, I realize you say here lay your current design on top of it - do you mean the code? I'm sorry, but I'm totally missing something here (as usual!)...
Well, the way I use it is by opening a new browser and loading the page into it (the sample html page in the zip). The I click on 800x600 and I see the 800x600 picture come up. Then I resize the browser until I cannot see any extra white space..
Then I open up another browser, and load the page I am currently working on. I pute that browser window on top of my '800x600' browser window to do a size compare. I resize the browser window that contains my webpage to match the 800x600 window..
All this really does is show you how much room is on a 800x600 (or 1024x768) window. If your running 800x600 it's going to be a waste of time.... but if your running 800x600 it's hard to design for anything larger...
Gosh, I'm sorry, Dr. Web, but I'm lost. Plus, I have a new problem. (Surprise, surprise...) I was going nuts with the spacer.gif today and did a bunch of playing around on my page. It was looking all right. Then I minimized it and it looks like sheer H-E-double toothpicks!!.
When I got to the end of the first table list, I wanted to just move the table to start at the top, but it wouldn't do it. I tried valign="top", rowspan...it just kept going next to the last table cell in that list. I had done that successfully on my old iPage site and got it, but this simply would not align to the top so I just added an additional table cell on a few of the cells and it looked good full size - now it's a mess I cannot figure it out..
So, instead of starting yet another thread, do you think you (or somebody, anybody??) could take a look and tell me what I'm doing wrong? I really hate to ask, but I tried some webmaster sites and tutorials and can't find this covered - or maybe I'm not searching right because I don't really know just what the problem is to search for a solution for....
Oh - here's the page:.
Ahh poor jeni.
What part is messed up? and to test anything in a table it is easier to do it with the table borders on. makes life a little easier too..
Well, it looks good full size, but when you minimize it looks just awful! It's a wretched mess! And I can't get it to look "normal" when I minimize the screen no matter what I try. I always check that because I like it to look good no matter how the screen is sized. I tried adding a "align=left" cell - nothing is working. I'm using a spacer Dr. Web and As for sizing, I'm trying not to because my pages look like crap on the higher resolutions and I read the best way to avoid that is not to specify sizes - or did someone in here tell me that - not sure now but I'm re-working the home page first of course because I never did like it and now I saw it on the 1078 resolution and it looks like a five year old slapped it up there on the web!.
I just can't win, you know? I should have kept the blondie avatar.....
Yeah but a smart five year old.
Anyway you need to add width and height to your tables and make them %'s..
Aw..gee, you made my night - not feeling too smart these days fighting with that code. Thank you, scoutt. I needed that - was feeling really crabby and in truth, that's rare for me. (It is!!).
Okay, now I stink at math (anyone surprised.lol). So forgive my ignorance with this stupid question, but I just want to be sure I do this right. Do you just figure the entire screen is 100% and take it from there? That I can handle. I thought at first you had to make percentages to specific resolutions and even a calculator wouldn't help me with that! (insert dunce emoticon here). I got A's in business math, but that's a whole different ball game! And it was an awfully long time ago - we couldn't even use calculators! I think I should stop there - I'm aging myself. Yipes..
Wish me luck because I've been trying everything and nothing is working. Just nothing...
Deep breaths....in.......and..out again....in......
Using relative tables sizes (i.e. percentages) is known as a 'liquid' or 'flexible' design. It's very common and is the best way of designing a web page to cater for multiple resolutions, window sizes, etc. Depending on your existing knowledge of tables then learning a flexible design can be anything from very easy to something that requires quite a bit of practice and concentration. However, it pays dividends to learn this technique and once you have done it once it's simple to do it for any future work..
As you correctly summised, 100% is the full width of the screen, 50% half the width, 10% a tenth of the width, etc. Therefore if someone resizes their browser window then all the layout resizes with it. I could type a whole tutorial here but I have an excellent link which I would prefer to point you at instead. What I suggest is that you take a couple of hours to go through this tutorial.
(it's even downloadable). Then if there are any problems with any of the concepts please just ask and someone here will explain..
Good luck (and remember the breathing exercises)..
Hi - I answered yesterday I think it was, but it appears my answer didn't take - I've been having a lot of difficulty in here the last couple days. But then, I have a lot of difficulty with just about everything!.
Thanks so much for the info and I did download that tutorial and studied it today, but it will take a few times and actually trying things so I can see how they turn out as I go. That is an excellent tutorial and I really appreciate your sharing it with me.
I sure was relieved about the percentages thing - that's grade school stuff, thank goodness because that I can handle!!.
And, I've been doing a lot of that deep breathing, too - taking your advice on that one as well!.
Thanks again, so very much...
Oh - forgot to tell you and wanted to so badly - my home page is much, much better now! I didn't see it myself on the larger resolution but my dad looked today and said "it's centered, Jeni!" Whew...that's what I needed to hear, but I do want to go over there and look myself, too. I have to check out the other pages. Did I mention I have over 650 pages on that iPage site and they're all coded with 800 by 600 widths?.
I have no idea how I am going to survive this one - on top of that, I found out today one of my affiliates is no longer in service and never told anyone who was affiliated with them and I have their banner all over the place. So, I will practically have to re-work over 650 pages and haven't been able to comprehend that as yet. That's why I need that deep breathing!!!..
Are you using dreaweaver/ or microsoft visual source safe? Some programs have features to change things sitewide. They can work in specific folders or directories, or in the whole site..
Just a thought...
Hi Dr. Web! No, I don't use any HTML editor. I had one for a while that you all recommended in here - I have the link but the name escapes me right now. Anyway, I never did have the time to figure it out so all my pages are done by hand with notepad..
As for the microsoft visual source safe - Dr. Web, I don't know what that is!?!?!.
Thanks for the reply...
Is a tool that lets multiple developers work on the same site(s) at the same time. Like your local library... only one person may have a file checked out at the same time. it also can 'version' your work, a good feature if you make version 1, 2, 3, and so on..
Source safe also can do extened search and replace. So if your logo graphic changes from logo.gif to bigNewLogo.gif, you could replace all occurrences with about two mouseclicks. It wont help you set up things in percentages any faster.... but it makes swapping out links a snap..
You may perform these kinds of search and replace on the entire website, specific files, and everything inbetween..
Dreamweaver also has the extended search and replace feature. Additionally, dreamweaver has the capability to change all tables from pixel values to percentage values in 1 mouseclick...
Okay, no, that one I don't have. It's just me, all by my lonesome here. No one to help, no one to ask for help - except you lucky ducks and absolutely no one else has access to my computer..
That sounds like heaven - how does one get it? Is it awfully expense?.
And Dreamweaver - from all I've heard, they sure named it right because it does sound like a dream! I can't afford it right now though. It's in the back of my mind as priority though, if I ever can afford it. I've heard nothing but praise about it for some time now - on the Internet. I don't know if I ever told you all, but I'm sick and on disability, which means I'm living in extreme poverty right now. Long story and I won't bother you with it, but all my dignity and pride is gone so I don't really care who knows anymore. Anyway, that is why this is all so very important to me.
I just can't seem to get anything going. I run into these stumbling blocks all the time and as I've mentioned, there is literally not one living soul I can ask for help. So when I say I'm grateful, you can bank on it that I mean it very sincerely..
Life - it is interesting, if nothing else...
Jeni my version of notepad has search and replace. I can upload it here if you want. I don't think it is that big...
REally? you mean I could search for where something is - wait, let me just put it this way - how does that work? It sounds neat. Thank you...
I have DW4, I'd never leave home without it. However, if I am going to do a lot of hand coding, and you just can't get away from that sometimes, then I don't use DW4, I don't use Homesite (that comes with DW4), I actually use EditPlus2. It's shareware but is a fantastic, very easy to use, HTML editor..
Get it from here.
I cannot imagine developing complete web sites in Notepad. I mean we all do the odd quick fix in there sometimes but to develop a whole web iPage site with it...no..no..no..no.noooo..
Well, basically you open you html page in the notepad ot editplus then you click on replace. it will find a certain value then replace it with another certain value. so.
Replace " with \" and it will find all the " and replace them with \". easy as that..
Editplus is realy good so it ConText at.
And it's free...
That is exactly what I have done with every page! Mostly because I have yet to figure out how to use these editors, yet I often hear and read on the 'net how much easier it is with an editor. Something I really have to learn soon because it is very tedious and time consuming doing every keystroke by hand in notepad. How well I know! Sheeze. I looked at that link and bookmarked it and will probably try the trial and see how I like it. It sure sounds nice..
That sounds great - but can you do multiple pages at once or must you do each page separately? I guess I'm a little confused as to just how it works. Perhaps I should just download it and try - seeing and doing is sometimes the best way to learn!.
Thank you, both you, very much! Wish me luck!..
I would also agree with torrent. Let the diehard notepad fans use notepad. (or pico for unix users)..
For the rest of us a HTML editor is a large improvement. There are really fancy ones... homesite is one (and a darn good one at that). There are many, many free html editors..
So when you type in <td> it automatically inserts </td> for you. Some offer search and replace (which is a LIFESAVER!). If you were working on a page and you wanted to replace all occurences of 'jeni' with 'Jeni' ... two mouseclicks and your there..
As far as setting them up and using them? Usually all you need to do is install it, and start typing away. It does the rest. If you choose to use the 'special' features, great. If not, no bother with your everyday coding..
Below is an attached screenshot of coldfusion studio. All I really want to show you with this screen capture is the actual coloring that the editor puts on the code...
WoW!!!! It even tells you the line number and everything!!! Oh I wish I could use one - that must make things SO much easier. I did learn using notepad because it was all I had and at the time, all I knew! I have since read much about editors and have had people tell me they wouldn't even know how to make a web page without one as that was all they knew..
How much is the one you showed me? You really think I should just stick to notepad? The free one I was using before I upgraded (just haven't downloaded it again) was really nice - I saw a few people recommend it in here. I can't think of the name off hand and the link to it is still on my back up disk. Priorities, you know!.
But there were so many options and such I got a bit lost...
Jeni if you don't want to spend money, Context is free and shows line numbers and color coding. plus can load more than one page at a time. and editplus is shareware and I think it does the samething. also I think front page will change something on all pages at once, but don't quote me on that let me check. Front Ppage express is also free...
Sorry jeni, what I mean was delete notepad from your computer as soon as possible..
I do think you should stop using notepad though, and go with a free htmleditor like:.
Which is 1st page 2000. Free. Download it. We'll help you use it..
Coldfusion studio/ homesite can be a bit expensive, but 1stpage probably does 75% of what they do.... and it's free...
That's the one! That's the one I was just trying before I upgraded to ME that is still in my backed-up bookmarks!.
Thank you - now I don't have to go hunting. I put it off because I have so dog-gone many webmaster sites, tutorials, etc., etc...it's out of hand, to be honest. But you really don't need to know all that now, do you!.
You will? Really? That sure would be nice - I can't deny I was majorily confused when I did use it. I made a few pages but found I was mostly typing in the code by hand anyway and just thought there had to be an easier way, but heck if I could figure it out..
Then I feel so stupid because I've read that many find those easier than hand coding..
I just never want to become a pest so I try to keep my questions down to a minimum - I don't ever want any of you to think I'd take advantage of your kindness and so rarely do I feel I can reciprocate. I try - I come in and read and see if I ever can answer anything someone asks, but what happens more often than not is instead, I see how very much I still have to learn. Sigh..
Well, sorry I'm babbling again. I'll go download it right now - I have the page up. Thanks so much!..
Well, I am suggesting that you continue coding by hand. In my opinion there is no better way..
The html editor just adds features to help you hand code.... but the features (such as color coding) are very helpful. And, yes we can help you use it..
As I mentioned, the most basic use of a html editor is to let it 'color' your code for easier reference. As time goes on, you might want to explore the various features which are included... and maybe you'll find the search and replace..
And you can always post a thread like:.
1stpage 2000.... does it do search and replace?.
And watch the replies come in. I can't remember who exactly offhand... but I know that HTMLForums has current members that use this product to develop web pages..
Ok, NOW delete notepad!..
I'd like to design a complete web iPage site in binary..
Can you recommend a good editor?.
I've been considering using Unix's ed or vi. What do you think?..
I see - so you mean use it to sort of "enhance" making pages. Well, it sure would help to have things colored like that. I did notice it colored some things when I made some pages but I had no idea why! (doh).
Right, once I got familiar with it and figured out the way it works I'd feel more comfortable fooling around in it. I get a little intimidated when I start something new. I remember the first page I made - my hands were shaking! Stupid - but it was part excitement, too along with fear it wouldn't work..
Well, this is where I learned of it. I use bravenet.com for several things on my web iPage site and they always offer Cute Page. I downloaded it once but as my usual style was for a time there, I crashed shortly after and had never tried it and didn't bother to download it again. You know that in a four week time span I crashed five times? That was over a year ago - only once since, thank goodness but I sure learned how to restore well....
Hey Scoutt! You have been around here a long time haven't you! I just found this thread and this is probably something someone has mentioned already but I thought I would add my 2 yens worth. I have partitoned my hard drive and set up several different OS's on them so I am able to test on Win 98 (any browser that works), Win2k (2 partitions), Wn2k Japanese (2 partitions) That is five OS's on one machine! However, I still have to reboot to access the other OS so it may as well be on a different machine but it is a solution for those with only one machine and too many OS's. Now if I can just get around to actually testing my sites instead of lazily coding for one browser and one resolution. ;o)..
Sure Bob you can do it that way, but like you said it is like having a different pc. you just can't load 2 IE's on the same OS. thanks for adding that though...